Is Mary A virgin And Did She Have Just One Child?

[Prince]

Is Mary A virgin And Did She Have Just One Child?

Ladies and Gentlemen, I posted this question at owerrigirls.net.  As you well know, opinion is a dime a dozen on this issue.  I was just wondering what the folks of this forum think.  What do you think the truth is?  Everybody is invited to weigh in.  

Rules:
1. This topic is designed to expound and uncover bible truth.  Therefore, only bible citations are required as support for an assertion.

2. This not an opportunity for personal attacks or name calling.  Not only are they rude, they are out right uncivilized.

3. No unsigned, or otherwise unidentifiable, responses will be entertained.  (Discipline is the ability to operate within establised guidelines.)

[Honeybunnie]

I wish I had a say in this, but I really don\'t. Are we not supposed to follow what the Bible tells us, which is that the Virgin Mary had a child Jesus. I believe Mary was a virgin, that is what was behind the holy conception. I think Jesus had brothers, because it said so in some parts of the Bible that \"....his brothers...\"

This is a very controversial issue...but will make for good discourse.

I just noticed the rules for this discourse....Unfortunately, I am not armed with my Bible verses at the moment....Oh Well!!!!

[Susia]

Hmmmm, Prince, i dont know where you are headed to but to the best of my knowledge, Mary was a virgin and gave birth to Jesus. The bible didn\'t say if Mary gave birth to another child. If i am not mistaken, the first time mary was mentioned in the Bible was in the new testament Mt 1:16, In verses 18, Mary was engaged to Joseph when she found out she was pregnant. Now in verses 23, an angel appeared to Joseph in a dream and told him the Virgin (Mary)shall be with child and bear a son and they shall call him Immanuel. So the angel confirmed that Mary was a Virgin. Let me refer you again to Luke 1:26-38. Pay specific attention to Verse 27and 34. Now when someone does not know a man, that means they are a Virgin.
Again to the best of my Knowledge the bIble doesn\'t have a record of mary giving birth to another child.
I will do more research on this and hopefully, i\'ll come out with something

[Prince]

To Hb:
You are not alone.  Nobody has a say in any of this.  But we can have an opinion, and based on what we read, gain knowledge.  Yes, we are obligated to believe and follow bible instructions.  Yes, Mary was a virgin, she was still a virgin even after the birth of Jesus.

But no, she did not have a child; she had  many children, as you rightly pointed out.  She had both boys and girls.

No, it\'s not controversial; you\'re doing just fine.  You know the truth and there\'s only one truth.  There shouldn\'t be any controversy.  People make it controversial when they dont take the time to find the truth.  We just find the truth.

To Susia:
Relax, be asured that I\'m not going anywhere sinister with it.  If the bible sees it fit for discussion, I\'ve no inhibitions about it.  So far, so good.  Ithink you have it all correct with the exception of the part where you said Mary didn\'t have any more kids.  She most certainly did have children, possibly 8, after Jesus.  The bible has record of it.

That she was a virgin has never been in despute; never was, never will be.  The problem is: Every Catholic still addresses her as a virgin.  She was a virgin, and like every other woman, lost her virginity after her first sexual experience.  Mary\'s case is unique in the sence that she remained a virgin even after the birth of Jesus, because he never knew any man yet.  But once Jesus left the stable, Joseph did what he had to do to get Jesus\' other sibblings.

Go ahead and \"resachuo,\" in the words of Honeybunnie, and tell us what you find.

[Susia]

@ Prince, you almost got me for a quick sec trying to wonder where u was headed to. Now I feel you. The Bible never recorded Mary conceiving other kids. The first place Jesus\'s brother was recorded was in Mt 12:46-50. The way i understood that to be was, Mary and His brothers in christ not neccesary biological brother. Read verses 50 \" For whosoever shall do  the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother. So those that were with Mary looking for Jesus, could have been those that were doing his will.

I am still researching but decided to drop a few lines

[Honeybunnie]

You know, I can\'t remember where in the Bible, but I know that Jesus had younger brothers, Mary\'s children. I am not sure if he had sisters though.  I know he had James and Jude for brothers. But I can see where there would be a major conflict in beliefs, that would be in the Catholic Faith where they would not be able to reconcile the fact that Mary had other kids, considering that she is still considered the virgin Mary even in death.

I believe strongly that Jesus had blood brothers, of the same mother....

[Prince]

Yes, the bible said that, but before I go in, let me give you one tip.  This tip is reserved for serious bible students.  I\'m gonna give it to you anyway.  It might spark your interest in serious bible study and investigation.

Every serious bible student knows that God purposely scrambled the prophesy and wisdon of the bible to hide them from the wise of the world to be revealed to babes, people with open minds, people willing to accept Christ\'s new doctrine.  Matt 11:25 states, \"At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.\"  For this same reason he said that we cannot put new wine (his doctrine) into old wineskin (old mind encolcated with old beliefs and tradition).
 
So, one of the 7 keys to understanding scripture is found in Isaiah 29.  Verse 9 starts: \"Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.\"  Here, God identifies the same babes to reveal his truth to.  The next verse shows the babes how to ackquire bible truth and knowledge.
 
10: \"For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line; here a little, and there a little.\"  As I said, God hid his truth from the wize of the world and for the babes to find them they\'ll have to take a little here and a little there, match them line upon line, concept upon concept, inference upon inference.  

Bible enterpretation is not for humans.  The bible enterpretes itself.  We can\'t see it any other way or have any enterpretation.  If we violate this instruction, we are liable to be guilty of violating the principles of Deut 4:2 \"Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.\"

I\'ll stop here, for now.  Chew on the blueprint I\'ve laid out before you.  Familiarise yourself with the principles, because in my next post we shall explore the passage to see if it vindicates you belief.  If not, we will employ the blueprint to dig out the truth, all from the pages of the bible; no enterpretations, no explanations.

[Prince]

Yes, Hb, you are certainly on the money, in all your assertions.  I was just drawing attention to your staement that \"Mary had a child Jesus.\"  But your later statement, \"I think Jesus had brothers,\" is more accurate and trumps the the previous.  We can either scrap the previous or at least modify it to express your actual view.  My suggestion is adding the word \"first.\"  Then, it would read, \"Mary had her first child, Jesus.\"  This opens the door for your second statement.  I know that\'s what you meant to say.

Don\'t worry much about where it is in the bible.  Since we are on the same team, I got your back.  Please, I mean it figuratively, not literally, ha ha ha.

[uapo4]

Yes, Blessed Mary is a virgin and continue to be a virgin. She had only Jesus Christ and that\'s what I believe.

[Prince]

OK, Uapo4, that\'s an interesting viewpoint.  But it\'s your belief.  Now, what is required of you is to establish this fact, from the pages of the bible, as I\'m gonna do shortly.  Remember that it was the son of Mary, Jesus, who gave us the bible, before he became man.

At least we have a pattern here.  You and Susia on one side; Honeyb and I on the other.  Intriguing.

[Honeybunnie]

While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. Someone told him, \'Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you\' ... Coming to his hometown, he began teaching the people in their synagogue, and they were amazed. \'Where did this man get this wisdom and these miraculous powers?\' they asked. \'Isn\'t this the carpenter\'s son? Isn\'t his mother\'s name Mary, and aren\'t his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas? Aren\'t all his sisters with us? Where then did this man get all these things?\' (Matthew 12:46-47; 13:53-56)

Another place that would suggest that Jesus in fact had brothers would be this passage, \"...went down to Capernaum with his mother and brothers and his disciples...\" (John 2:12) This part I think distinctly seperates, the \'brothers\' from the \'disciples\'

Remember that before the pentecost, that Bible in Acts stated that \"They all joined together constantly in prayer, along with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brothers.\" (Acts 1:14)

I believe that Jesus was conceived and born of the virgin Mary, Remember that Joeseph was going to divorce Mary when he found out about the pregnancy that she had and that she was carrying Jesus, until he was spoken to by the angel. He stayed with her, and they continued their family.

But then again, there would be some serious contention as to if the brothers and sisters mentioned in the Bible were in fact blood relatives or not because the term \"Brothers, Brethren\" might well mean anybody and is very vague.

Remember again that at the crucifixtion, Christ gives care of his mother to John. \"When Jesus saw his mother, and the disciple whom he loved standing near, he said to his mother, \'Woman, behold, your son!\' Then he said to the disciple, \'Behold, your mother!\' And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home\" (John 19:26-27).

Why did Jesus ask Mary to have John , his disciple as a son, why did he not hand his mother over to his brothers. The Bible could be interpreted to mean so many things in so many different ways, and that is really why we are not all-knowing like God.

Religion is one topic I try to stay away from, because it is founded in different people\'s beliefs (which are very strong) that you really can\'t change or make any less of. But this is my belief, which I\'m very sure is different from my muslim friend\'s belief, or even Uzoma\'s and many others.

[Susia]

Well I still dont believe Jesus, had biological brothers, Like I mention earlier, brother in that text could mean Brothers in christ( like brethren): refer to Mt 12:50.
Yvonne all you did was spell out the chapter i had quoted in my last post.
Mt 12:46-50.
In referance to the chapter that you quoted, Mt 13:53-56, especially, verses 55, a question was asked by the people Jesus was teaching to. Is this not the carpenter\'s Son? Is this not his mother mary? and his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas? This was not a statement but rather was a question. Haven\'t you forgotten that Jesus had 12 disciples and the four names refered to above were disciples of Jesus.
Let me you why i believe the brothers refered to were his disciples based on my findings and Mt 12:50.
1. The first place Jesus\'s brother was seen in the Bible is in Mt 12:46-50. before i proceed to my second reasons, i would like to tell you things that happened before this chapter that happened in the bible.
In Mt 4: 18, Jesus called his first disciples,Simon and his brother Andrew.In verses 21, Jesus called James and John. In Mt 9:9, Jesus called Matthew. Just to cut everything short, Jesus had actually gotten his twelve disciples in Mt 10:2 before the incident in Mt 12: 46-50.2. Prior to the statement in Mt 12: Jesus had left his disciples( but a multitude of pple followed Jeus) where they were picking grains and eating, and went into the synagogue where he started doing his miracles, they Bible did not record the disciples going with him. Mt12: 15. It was there that Jesus was preaching and healing pple--- demon-posssessed man who was blind and mute, etc. Now remember it was a multitude of pple in the synagogue where he was preaching when his  someone said to Jesus in verses 46\" Your mother and brothers are standing outside wanting to speak to him\" In verses 48 \" He answered  and said to the one who had told him\"\" Who is my mother and who are my brothers\" and pls read verses 50.
Like Yvonne also said pple have diffent interpretation of the scripture.

[uapo4]

Well done Yvonne (HB) and Susia. The quotes you have in the Bible are truely so, and believe me, almost every diligent Bible-reading person has seen most of them. There\'s a reason why it is still maintained that Mary is ever virgin and of course blessed, and I don\'t need to explain the last part.

The Holy Bible was not originally written in English...it was written in the language of the Hebrews and latin I think. In this language, which is very easy for us mostly Igbos to understand, they also don\'t have a word for distinguishing the blood-brothers and cousins that we have in English language. In the Igbo language, we call brothers, sisters, cousins, second-cousins \"Nwanne\"...you can only distinguish exactly if the person goes on to describe that this is \"Nwanne m nwoke/nwanyi nne m muru na afo\"; this is the same thing with the Bible and its intepretation in English.

As a matter of fact, HB gave other supporting arguments regarding that as in Jesus telling John and Blessed Mary at the foot of the cross that behold your mother and mother, behold your son. This will appear akward if Jesus had other blood-brothers/sisters with Mary their mother.

The bottomline here is that there are things known about the Holy Family (Jesus, Mary and Joseph) and other events in the era that are not in the Bible. Aren\'t there people who passed on the information from generation to generation? Do you really believe that the life of Jesus and his apostles could just be covered in the New Testament of the Bible? Even my own little and relatively insignificant life cannot be written in 2000 pages talkless of Jesus\' life.
I believe Blessed Mary is ever virgin.

[Prince]

Susia, I don\'t believe anybody is attempting to convince you one way or the other.  We are all investigating in the hope of excavating the truth.  Even if the truth is found in this forum, no one here has to convert.

I commend the efforts you guys are making digging up the bible passages.  One is liable to learn a thing or two, before it\'s over.  

I\'d like to go a little further in exploring the term \"BRETHREN.\"  According to the concordance, the ?brethren,? we are all tinkering with is taken from the word, adelphos (meaning a connective particle) and delphus (meaning womb).  Putting the two together implies connected in or by the womb, in the masculine sense; in other words, brother.  This is a term that can be used literally or figuratively, the only ways brethren can be applied.  It behooves us Christians, bible investigators, to know when and how each variety is intended.  Incidentally, in the passage in question, both literal and figurative applications were employed.

Refering to Since the two parties (Jesus and the people to whom he was talking) used ?brethren,? who is the literal user and who is the figurative user?  The crowd is of the local variety.  They know Jesus and his family.  But they have no concept of being a ?brother in Christ,? especially when the term had not been coined at the time.  This group of people, just arrived, must be so special that it was the crowd that announced their presence to Jesus, not Jesus himself or the disciples.  It?s therefore the crowd who used brethren literally, as connected by the womb.

But Jesus disagreed with them and pointed to his disciples as his mother, brother, or sister.  You know that nobody in his disciple-hood gave birth to Jesus.  You also know that Jesus is not from the same womb as Peter.  So, it was Jesus who used the term in a figurative sense.

[Prince]

Uapo4, you are right. There is a reason why the Catholic Church maintains that Mary remained a virgin till death, but it has nothing to do with the truth.  What do you mean, \"I don\'t need to explain the last part?\"  Go ahead, explain away.

Your analogy with the Igbo language can\'t be more wrong.  Almost every language has more diction than the Igbo language.  The New Teatament was originally written in Greek.  As I said earlier, The original had 6 different words which the English translators lumped together as brethren.

There is an explanation for Hb\'s reference to Jesus asking John to take care of Mary.  John was a very youngman, possibly younger than Jesus\' brothers. Some say he was a teenager, whom Jesus loved very dearly.  This explains why he was always found by Jesus\' side.  Besides, he was not married as did other brothers of Jesus.  

He was the only logical choice for Mary\'s custody seeing that he was young, Jesus\' best and closest friend, single and therefore without major responsibility.  Jesus prophesied that all the other appostles would be murdered, excepting John who would die a natural death.  It di so happen.

A few questions for you, though.  Are you saying that it doesn\'t mean anything to you that the bible took the time to qualify Jesus as mary\'s first child, not only child.  The use of the term first would imply that others would follow.

The bible also took time to explain that Joseph never laid with Mary until Jesus was born.  Until, folks.  This tell me that after the birth of Jesus, all bates are off.

Joseph was told by the angel to take his wife to himself.  Do you think that is the same as when Jesus told John to adopt Mary? I think not.  She was a wife, not a roommate.  Did Joseph take a second wife who would fulfil the marital duties he had gone to marry Mary for? No.  Mary was it.  

Mary is no more a virgin than any other woman.  They are virgins until their fist sexual experience.  She was required to be a virgin just for the birth of Jesus.  Once Jesus came, her job was done.  Salvation is all about Jesus, not Mary.