Author Topic: Pope, Unable to Speak: Time To Step Down? Your View.  (Read 30101 times)

okey

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Pope, Unable to Speak: Time To Step Down? Your View.
« Reply #60 on: April 02, 2005, 11:01:43 PM »
Quote from: \"sly\"
Fresco I totally agree with u. I even think he should die, no offence meant but I think someone else should take his place because he has been a great pope and has achieved everything he could as a pope. Right now, he can not do much because of his frail health which might not improve greatly bcos of his age, but the earlier someone succeeds him the better for him and the church. I think he will go down as one of the best Popes in history.


Sly, this is a loaded statement and if i truely dissect your statements, this will be a very lenghty discussion.
However, I disagree with you statement that the Pope should die. He is the head and spritual leader of the church. His significance is more than a physical one.
The vatican can be considered like a government. Even without the Pope, there are stuctures in place to handle different issues such as poverty, morality, politics, etc. They have representations all over the world including the UN.

Calling for the resignation of the Pope; I believe you cannot have another Pope until an existing Pope dies or for some reason resigns.

Not to go off tangent here, think of an establishment such as the english monachy. The royal family is there and has its significance. However, would you say the queen Elizabeth is phycally running the UK? I don\'t think so. Tony Blair runs England, Ireland have there leaders and so on.

The Pope once again is the spiritual leader of the Catholic church and is a source of great inspiration to everyone.
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Amaka

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Pope, Unable to Speak: Time To Step Down? Your View.
« Reply #61 on: April 03, 2005, 01:19:15 AM »
Pope at 84 finally kicks the bucket. What ever happens, we are very much proud of him. He handled his position in a very inspiring way. Bush comments that \"His Holiness is a faithful servant of God and a champion of human dignity and freedom. He is an inspiration to us all\". I couldn\'t have said it well, it was definitely his time and may his precious, gentle soul rest in perfect rest.

Prince

  • Posts: 438
Pope, Unable to Speak: Time To Step Down? Your View.
« Reply #62 on: April 03, 2005, 01:23:58 AM »
Hey Okey, you definitely have been busy.  That was quite a mouthful.  I?m just gonna have to take them one after the other.

Yes, I did make the statement
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I tell you, Catholics are confused on the issue of papal status. Some say he is God, others say he is not. While some say he is human, and therefore, imperfect, many believe in the infallibility of the pope. Go figure.
If you look closely, you will observe that I referred to two classes of Catholics, ?some? and ?others.?  They are all Catholics.  I just reported what both sides say.  

When Chizor raised this issue a while back, I answered:
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?Unless you want to disown those villagers, who say, \"Pope wu Chineke nke anyi na-ahu anya.\" I think they are Catholics and many of them have risen to be Knights.?

It is obvious you are one of those who say that the Pope is not God.  You cannot speak for those who think he is.  One of two things is clear.  You are either saying that those other folks are not Catholics, or they didn?t say what I attributed to them.  You see, that puts you in a precarious position, doesn?t it?  You are not in the position to denounce and disown those Catholics, and cannot say that they didn?t say what I reported, given that you weren?t there.

To refute my statement, you have to poll every Catholic in the world, or at least obtain a working sample from every ethnic group.  Find out what they believe.  If nobody agrees with my statement, you can then come back and say ?Hey, you lied, no catholic ever believes that, be he white or black, rich or poor, active or non active, practicing or dormant,  literate or illiterate, intelligent or dummy.  

Unless you want to disown those villagers, who say, \"Pope wu Chineke nke anyi na-ahu anya.\" I think they are Catholics and many of them have risen to be Knights.

Similarly, there are those who think the Pope is human and subject to errors, and there are those who think he is infallible.  From the look of things, you belong in the first group.  However, you cannot speak for the group, which says he is infallible.  You gus will have to go sort it out yourselves.  With that, I refer you to an excerpt from the \"CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA,\" on the issue of Papal infallibility:
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The Pope

EXPLANATION OF PAPAL INFALLIBILITY

The Vatican Council has defined as \"a divinely revealed dogma\" that \"the Roman Pontiff, when he speaks ex cathedra -- that is, when in the exercise of his office as pastor and teacher of all Christians he defines, by virtue of his supreme Apostolic authority, a doctrine of faith or morals to be held by the whole Church -- is, by reason of the Divine assistance promised to him in blessed Peter, possessed of that infallibility with which the Divine Redeemer wished His Church to be endowed in defining doctrines of faith and morals; and consequently that such definitions of the Roman Pontiff are irreformable of their own nature (ex sese) and not by reason of the Church\'s consent\" (Densinger no. 1839 -- old no. 1680). For the correct understanding of this definition it is to be noted that:

What is claimed for the pope is infallibility merely, not impeccability or inspiration (see above under (I).

The infallibility claimed for the pope is the same in its nature, scope, and extent as that which the Church as a whole possesses; his ex cathedra teaching does not have to be ratified by the Church\'s in order to be infallible.

Infallibility is not attributed to every doctrinal act of the pope, but only to his ex cathedra teaching; and the conditions required for ex cathedra teaching are mentioned in the Vatican decree:
He who knows not, and knows not that he knows not, is a fool.

If you s-m-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-l-l-l-l-l-l-l what the Prince - is - cooking!!

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Prince

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Pope, Unable to Speak: Time To Step Down? Your View.
« Reply #63 on: April 03, 2005, 02:04:28 AM »
The second part of your argument hinges on the definition of the term, \"Pope.\"  I see you appear to disagree with my definition.  In doing so, you provided a dictionary definition.  You wrote
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What is a Pope? Pope is, from a Roman Catholic perspective, The bishop of Rome and head of the Roman Catholic Church on earth.
That only provides the office of the Pope, not its meaning.

A good dictionary should privide access to, among other learning tools, ETYMOLOGY, which The American Heritage? Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition defines as,
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\"The origin and historical development of a linguistic form as shown by determining its basic elements, earliest known use, and changes in form and meaning, tracing its transmission from one language to another, identifying its cognates in other languages, and reconstructing its ancestral form where possible.\"

Concerning the term pope, its ethymology has this to say:
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ETYMOLOGY: Pope
Middle English, from Old English papa, from Late Latin, from Latin, father (title of bishops), from Greek pappas; see papa in Indo-European roots

Conserning your comment about the biblical use of the term, \"father,\" I will address shortly.  I must first take a breather and tend to other things.
He who knows not, and knows not that he knows not, is a fool.

If you s-m-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-l-l-l-l-l-l-l what the Prince - is - cooking!!

(Adapted from WWE’s Rock.)

Honeybunnie

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Pope, Unable to Speak: Time To Step Down? Your View.
« Reply #64 on: April 03, 2005, 04:58:44 AM »
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THE POPE HAS DIED!!!!!!!
[/size]

More info coming

oops!!! Guess I\'m too Late....Oh Well..Really Sad Day!

sly

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Pope, Unable to Speak: Time To Step Down? Your View.
« Reply #65 on: April 03, 2005, 08:59:09 PM »
Okey, first, I wish to state that I\'m a catholic and I know that there can not be two popes at the same time and this was one of the reasons why I wished the pope would pass away peacefully.
The pope like everybody knows is the spiritual \"leader\" of the catholic church. The pope has been ill for some time which is normal for any being, but it came to a point where his health started deteriorating for the worst following complications resulting from parkinsons, urinary tract infection and others amidst old age which puts him in a very bad situation. At this point I felt it would be better if he passed on so that another pope will be elected in his place. Having seen what happened in the Terri schiavo case I didnt want to see it happen again because it will be bad for the church. Imagine the pope bedridden for years and unable to make decision as a leader. There would be a lot of criticisms and dissenting views on the way forward which might throw the church into confusion. Like I said earlier he will go down in history as one of the best popes bcos of his achievements and I hope u agree with me that his peaceful death was the best for him and the church
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sly

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Pope, Unable to Speak: Time To Step Down? Your View.
« Reply #66 on: April 03, 2005, 09:24:49 PM »
Prince going by the saying that man is God to man I dont think u will categorise those catholics who say pope bu chineke nke anyi na ahu anya as seeing pope to be God. Its just that they see the pope as doing the wish of God on earth as his teachings exemplifies the life of christ on earth. The pope himself never said he was God and it will be difficult if not impossible for any person to assume he is God. People hold spiritual leaders in high esteem and could say anything out of sheer praise. During the reign of Elijah Mohammed of the Nation of Islam, he was seen as the servant of God and infact next to God. Maybe this explains the reason why the (NOI) killed Malcom X when he accused Elijah Mohammed of having kids from several women.
*****Accept criticism with a spirit of gratitude. Ego tripping is the dance of fools and has no place in the pursuit of excellence.*****
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fresco

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Pope, Unable to Speak: Time To Step Down? Your View.
« Reply #67 on: April 03, 2005, 10:48:35 PM »
well on the talk of Pope as being Chineke anyi na hu na anyi, those people who said perhaps meant something else. Perhaps they ran out of words to describe him. Nobody, Catholics, i know of have ever say that the Pope is God; what Pope does is to carry out the Wills of the God. Keeping the Church in check and making sure that the Chruch does not divert from its teachings. A disagreement might arise from the priest or the Bishops, this disagreement might be difficult to resolve; therefore the Pope makes FINAL decision of this disagreement. The Pope is like the Supreme Court, that makes final and absolute decision. The Pope keeps the church in shape; there has been issues that people raised about the Church\'s views; These issues have been brought to the late Pope and he made the final judgement. Issues like making women become priest, homosexuality, abortion and ectera. These issues the Pope has clearly stated the church\'s position. On these issues he disagreed. Why would women become priests? Throughout the life of Christ, women did not play siginificant roles. It was the Apostles and the Disciples that always present around Christ. It was to the Apostles that Christ said, during the Last Supper, where the washing of the feet took place, that he said to celebrate the Mass( the Body and Blood of Him) for his remembrance. These are my views but the pope\'s views or the catholics views may be different but ALL disagree with making women priests.
  Other people don\'t understand this and that is why some women and other pple hated the Pope.  In the end, the catholics never said that the Pope is God. Those villagers perhaps made a mistake in saying that or they couldn\'t describe it better than what they said. It would have been better had they elaborated what they said, if that request was made, then it would be clear. To me, this statement is sort what vague, and my mind can not absorb it.

Prince

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Pope, Unable to Speak: Time To Step Down? Your View.
« Reply #68 on: April 03, 2005, 11:13:38 PM »
Well, Sly, you will agree with me that language is language anywhere in the world.  The statement in question could have been worded differently to mean that the pope is God?s representative.   But they did not.

Don\'t you think it will be over-reaching to begin to explain what those folks meant?  Having been there at the time of the conversation, being the one to ask all the follow-up questions, and being the one who received all the answers, you will agree that I am in a better position to know what was their intent.

However, instead of dwelling on what the people said or did not say, or what they meant or did not mean, our time would be better spend hashing over my statement that even the elite Catholics subscribe to the notion of the pope being God by allocating to a human titles, honor, and reverence that belong to God.  When we give God\'s things to man, we make that man a god.

Both Chizor and Okey have raided that issue and I promised to address it.  If that?s a question you are interested in, just give me a little time.
He who knows not, and knows not that he knows not, is a fool.

If you s-m-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-l-l-l-l-l-l-l what the Prince - is - cooking!!

(Adapted from WWE’s Rock.)

Prince

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Pope, Unable to Speak: Time To Step Down? Your View.
« Reply #69 on: April 03, 2005, 11:38:44 PM »
Fresco, your argument is basically the same as Sly\'s.  Therefore, my answer can be applied to yours also.

You are not in the position to defend or explain a statement you are not privy to.

I\'m almost afraid to use this example; it may catapult this discussion into a whole new different dimension.  It is common knowledge that, as a matter of doctrine and principle, that abortion is not to be practiced.  The Church has never made any exceptions to this rule.  Some Catholics, prominent ones, at that, have been known to say that limited restrictions would be better.  These are the people who bring in mitigating circumstances like the health of the mother, the health of the fetus, in cases of rape or incest.

Now, if I came up to you and said that some Catholics support the banning of abortion while others oppose the ban, why would you take it upon yourself to explain to me what either side means?  You see, that the quagmire we\'re in.  You can only explain or defend your position or belief, not somebody else\'s, especially if you are not a material witness to the conversation.
He who knows not, and knows not that he knows not, is a fool.

If you s-m-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-l-l-l-l-l-l-l what the Prince - is - cooking!!

(Adapted from WWE’s Rock.)

sly

  • Posts: 217
Pope, Unable to Speak: Time To Step Down? Your View.
« Reply #70 on: April 03, 2005, 11:46:31 PM »
Prince I agree with what u said, I was throwing more light on the issue of pope being God bcos It will be ridiculous in this age and time for any body to think the Pope is God.I dont dispute the fact that u heard what these catholics said but like fresco said they probably made a mistake or couldnt describe it better than they said it (choice of word I guess). I also said earlier that ppl could say anything out of sheer praise for a spiritual leader like the pope. But if any catholic strongly maintains that the Pope is God, then I\'m afraid I would have to disagree with the person on that.
*****Accept criticism with a spirit of gratitude. Ego tripping is the dance of fools and has no place in the pursuit of excellence.*****
*****Michael Grant*****

Prince

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Pope, Unable to Speak: Time To Step Down? Your View.
« Reply #71 on: April 05, 2005, 01:00:52 AM »
Before going into the matter of Fatherhood and who should be called father, let?s do first things first.
A few posts ago, I wrote something about Catholic behavior, and it appeared a few feathers were ruffled.  And right before everyone?s eyes, situations began to deteriorate and fast tended towards childishness.  If I write anything not agreeable to any member, there are two options open to that member, comment or not comment.  Once a comment is forwarded, that member?s comment is automatically fair game for examination, review, exploration, and rebuttal.  However, in the exchange, all participants ought to stay clear of personal attacks, insults, and negative characterization.  Agree or disagree with my opinion, your comment is invited and welcome.

Please find hereunder, the portion of my post that angered some folks on the site.  If anything therein is untrue, any interested reader has every right to point out the falsehood and provide a truer version.  Disputing someone?s opinion or comment without reason, explanation, or correction is an unwarranted exercise.  In religious debates, the only support or proof acceptable to me has to come from the bible.  Having said that, my question is, what is it in this excerpt that is false or incorrect?  I dare you to point it out.  I answer to facts, not to people?s imaginations, and conjectures.  This is what I wrote.
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With the exception of Napoleon, no Catholic I know has ever missed the opportunity to bow or kneel in the presence of the pope. Again that is a reverence only reserved for God. Bowing or kneeling before any creature or creation, in heaven, on the earth, or in the sea, makes the object of our reverence a god. It very clear here:
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Deut 5:7-10 \"Thou shalt have none other gods before me. Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me, And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.
So, by offering God\'s entitlements to a human, Catholics equate that human to God. They can deny it all they want. They can explain it away all they want. The truth will not go away. Their actions speak for them.

Some guy was concerned by the highlighted sentence in the quote.  I speak the truth. For ages, all the questions about Catholic beliefs, customs, rituals, and doctrines have met with all sorts of rationalization.  The funny thing is: none of the reasons or rationales have biblical support.  They have reasons for casting aside God?s command of ?Remember the Sabbath to keep it holy,? in favor of the Sunday observance.  Rationales abound why they believe that the resurrection was a Sunday sunrise event.  There is no lack of explanation when asked why Catholics sprinkle water at baptism, in rejection if bible supported total emersion.  The list is endless.  There?s no amount of explaining or reasoning that is capable of mitigating the truth.  It can?t be replaced, it can?t be ignored, and it can?t be watered down.  By the immortal words of Johnny Cochran, \"If it doesn\'t fit, you must acquit,\" I say to you also, if it\'s not in the bible, you must reject.

I don?t write out of emotion.  I write out of conviction, conviction in the truth of the bible.  I said this and I will say it again, Catholics equate human to God by offering God\'s entitlements to a human.  I do have my reasons for saying that.  I will support my reasons, from bible pages, when I deal with the father issue.  Also to be addressed is the Yoruba and Igbo tradition of genuflecting and or postulating.
He who knows not, and knows not that he knows not, is a fool.

If you s-m-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-l-l-l-l-l-l-l what the Prince - is - cooking!!

(Adapted from WWE’s Rock.)

sly

  • Posts: 217
Pope, Unable to Speak: Time To Step Down? Your View.
« Reply #72 on: April 05, 2005, 02:12:44 AM »
I will advice that we desist from threading on some religious issues which might cause spiritual damnation. Like I said earlier our aim on this forum is to have fun while interacting with others. If we can\'t agree on some issues I will advice that we leave that issue and move ahead with other things. I dont see any reason for any person to take anything personal. Its uncalled for.There are a lot of things we can give attention to rather than dwell on issues that will cause enmity or disunite us. Plz this forum should not be seen as a battle ground. United we stand......
*****Accept criticism with a spirit of gratitude. Ego tripping is the dance of fools and has no place in the pursuit of excellence.*****
*****Michael Grant*****

Susia

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Pope, Unable to Speak: Time To Step Down? Your View.
« Reply #73 on: April 05, 2005, 07:22:35 AM »
@ Prince?. I am not here to stir up any arguments or nothing of that such just that I disagree with the bowing down thingy that you wrote here?. Before I proceed, I will like to state that I am Anglican and do not really know about the catholic faith although , I hear stuff about their doctrine hence, I will not participate or  indulge in a doctrine that I don?t know much abt.
   With the bowing down of a thing, it doesn?t really mean that I am worshipping you when I bow down to you. The reason why I am raising this issue is that as an Anglican, we bow down in church to the pastor or reverend in certain situation. Bowing can be a sign of respect. The American heritage dictionary defines bow as ?to bend the body, head or knee in order to express greetings, consent or courtesy.
In Genesis 17: 4-6 God made Abram Fathers of many nations and he changed his name from Abram to Abraham?now further in Genesis chapter 23:7, ? Then Abraham rose and bowed down before the people of the land?? So are u saying that Abraham committed a crime or equated the Hittites to God?. I mean there are so many instances where people bowed down in the bible as a sign of respect or to express greetings.
 As an Anglican, when communion is given in church, we don?t stand up and receive communion , we either kneel or bow?That doesn?t mean we are equating the pastor or reverend to God. The Biblical verses that you quoted doesn?t in anyway correlate with bowing down as a sign of respect.
When you pieces that verse very well u will see, it has absolutely nothing to do with equating pple that we bow down to as being God.
   
I don?t even know why we are actually going into why different religion do what they do? Or what domination are doing the right things or not. The Jehovah witness have their own beliefs too, I am not going to dispute what  they believe.  everyone has a a thing or two to say abt other religion but i think it shld be anyone place to detect what  a religion is doing right or wrong.I believe this is an individual race that we are all running. You are not going to run my race for me neither am I going to run urs. Everyone is going to answer to God almighty when that day comes. For 2 Corinthians 5;10 says? for we must appear before the Judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad?.  it didn?t say the religion or the church it says EACH one.
   So I am going to advise that you let sleeping dogs lie and let everyone run their race and do that which the deem is right, for who are we to judge. But why do we judge ur brother?, or why do u show contempt for ur brother?. For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ?? Romans 14:10 ?
 I don?t think God is going to judge us by our different religions. I don?t think either on that day God is going to say, Susia bia nwa m , u was an Anglican, therefore u are going to heaven.
So in conclusion, I will advice that u desist from finding faults in people religion and what they do right or wrong but rather concentrate on trying to make it to heaven.

 For as it is written:  There is none righteous, no not one?Roman 3:23
Therefore let us not judge one another anymore but rather resolve, this not to put a stumble block or cause a fall in our brothers way??Romans 14:13.
Begin with the determination to suceed and the work is half done already.

Honeybunnie

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Pope, Unable to Speak: Time To Step Down? Your View.
« Reply #74 on: April 05, 2005, 08:37:38 AM »
Since this topic is drawing the kind of attention that it is drawing, I would like to suggest that we make our points known to the originator of this thread in a personal message. I don\'t like what I sense in here, It would be great if we could all drop this, arguments on both sides for the sake of peace. THank you!!!!